MB: Hi guys. Welcome to another episode of the Name Drop Podcast, the podcast where we sit down with leaders, entrepreneurs, and experts who are really shaping their industry. This guest today was a fun one. We had a great conversation around the behind the scenes of building an agency and why people and operations are so foundational to scaling an agency today. Lots of good learnings in this one about career growth. Thanks for tuning in.
MB: What’s your favorite way to spend a day with no plans?
KK: What’s a day with no plans like? But I would say if I find myself on a day with no plans, walking around to the vintage furniture shops in my neighborhood, just kind of strolling. I love that.
MB: Are you more of a morning person or a night owl?
KK: Both, which is kind of not great. I feel like staying up late to binge a show is my me time. But I have two young kids. I have human alarm clocks.
MB: What’s the last book you read or podcast you listened to?
KK: I just finished Lena Dunham’s Famesick, and I listened to it on audio and is amazing. She reads it, and it just took me back to my 20s. It really takes you back to the Girls days and everything that she was going through behind the scenes that we just didn’t know. And we were just living our best lives, waiting for the next episode of Girls to come out. And it dawned on me as I was listening to it. I was like, “We’re the same age.”
MB: If you had a theme song play every time you walked into a room, what would it be?
KK: I asked my sisters, and of course, my sister said that my theme song would be the Phantom of the Opera theme song. And I was like, “That’s so mean.” But no, I feel like The Man by Taylor Swift right now.
MB: What’s one thing you’re currently learning about?
KK: I’m learning about two things, and I keep joking that I need to narrow it down. I’ve recently taken up golf and mahjong. I keep joking that I need to pick a lane because they’re both really expensive.
MB: Do you prefer one over the other right now?
KK: No, I really like them both. I joined a women’s golf league on Monday afternoons, which has been really fun. It’s been a fun way to learn and socialize at the same time and just meet new people. And then I’ve been playing mahjong with some of my fellow moms for my daughter’s class.
Mahjong is hard though. We all joke because everyone shows up on a Friday night and brings wine and stuff. And it’s like, you have to be with it. These moms night outs are just actually really intense. It’s really lovely. Mahjong’s having a moment.
MB: So without telling us who you are, what’s top of mind professionally these days?
KK: Lately been putting a lot of thought and chatting with folks a lot about outcomes-based pricing.
MB: What does that really mean to you, outcome-based pricing?
KK: I feel like we’ve moved from level of effort, hours based pricing, to deliverables-based pricing. And now I love talking to people that have been on the frontier of outcomes-based pricing, because I think the biggest difference between deliverables and outcomes-based pricing is that we’re able to almost incentivize performance. It’s like a plus-up of deliverables-based pricing, if that makes sense.
MB: So do you view it as if we deliver X results for you, you’ll pay us Y, but if we deliver A results for you even better, then we’ll get extra?
KK: Yeah. If we exceed your KPIs by at least X percent, there’s, I don’t know, 10% bonus on the cherry on top, right? Definitely bonus model is the way I see it, because otherwise, it’s just deliverables based pricing to a point. You need to do the thing you’re saying you’re doing. And you shouldn’t be further incentivized for that. But yes, if you exceed performance, then you get incentivized for it.
MB: How are clients reacting to it?
KK: We haven’t dipped our toes yet. But it’s definitely on my mind. I feel like we were maybe, I wouldn’t say late to the game to make the shift to deliverables-based, but it’s like, we’re just kinda getting clients cozy with that.
MB: Brag about yourself. What are you really good at?
KK: I hate bragging about myself. And funnily enough, I feel like most women do. I’d say reading a room.
MB: What’s been the most pivotal moment in your career?
KK: Probably too many to count, but I would say surprising myself and just up and quitting my job one day.
MB: When did you do that?
KK: When I left 360i. I hit a wall, a little bit of a burnout wall. I think I learned a ton by leaving without a plan. And that was a wild ride, but it was great. Just to have a nice reset. I knew that that was the right decision. But it was scary. As type A people, you feel like you need to have those other things lined up.
MB: The agency landscape has changed so much over the past few years. What types of things do you think that agencies need to be doing to thrive in the future state?
KK: I think in order to thrive, agencies need to be unapologetically themselves and not try to be everything to everyone. ’Cause I feel like we’ve seen that swing lately and that the pendulum’s already swinging. All the HoldCo names falling off the walls. And then all of a sudden, 360i’s back. Who would’ve thought? Actually, there is a need to have some personality and branding and point of view on the agency side. So have a point of view.
And indies, right? Everyone’s like, “This is your moment.” But there’s so many. So it’s also incredibly competitive and saturated, I feel like, more than ever. So I just think that having that strong point of view as an agency and sticking to it, you’re not gonna be the right partner for everyone. And you gotta be okay with that.
MB: What’s a leadership lesson that you’ve learned the hard way over the years?
KK: Probably the biggest one is that being the nice guy is not always what’s best. Said otherwise, don’t be a pushover. You can’t make everyone happy in every scenario. Being the nice guy is not always what’s best for everyone as individuals and for the organization as a whole.
MB: My dad used to always tell me, and still tells me, “It’s better to be respected than liked.” And those are two very different things.
KK: Especially throughout childhood, everything you’re aiming to be liked. So then it’s like, you have to retrain your brain. It’s okay to not be liked.
MB: What relationship has been most impactful on your professional life?
KK: At the risk of sounding cliche, I would say my relationship with my children. I think that it has just taught me so much about patience that has translated into my professional life, as well as just giving me perspective, for me personally to let go of some things at the end of the day, because what really matters? I’m like, wow, I am much more patient than I think I was.
MB: So tell us who you are and what you do.
KK: Hi, guys. I’m Kelly Kaiser, and I lead people and operations at the Escape Pod Agency and Gravitell Studio.
MB: So what does leading people and operations mean?
KK: What doesn’t it mean? It means that I get to be a matchmaker and a guidance counselor and financial advisor all in one day.
MB: Are you client-facing at all? Or are you mostly working magic with the team internally?
KK: Mostly behind the scenes, internally. And sometimes I am client-facing if it’s a right fit, depending on the project.
MB: And are you responsible for recruiting, hiring, internal development plans for people?
KK: All of those things, as well as overseeing and managing our financial forecast and keeping a close eye on our profitability. And then just also our internal processes, what’s working, what’s not, resourcing, all that kind of stuff.
MB: So most of your career was on the account management side. How and when did you make the shift into more agency business operations, people, culture, those types of things?
KK: It was shortly after I came to the Escape Pod. I came in on the account side. When you’re in such a small shop, you kinda have your hands in all the pots anyways. I feel like when you’re a certain personality, people are just kind of coming to you as a team lead anyways for help, whether it be interpersonal things or thoughts on how to motivate a team, things like that. So it just was kind of a natural evolution. I put a plan together, took it to our owner and CEO and was like, “Hey, I think that I’d be helpful in this role.” And he was like, “All right, cool. Let’s do it.”
MB: What would you say is the most challenging part, and what is the most rewarding part of your role today?
KK: It might be the same answer for both, because I think that just dealing with people and anytime there are interpersonal issues or challenges or disagreements, which is not that often, but that’s probably the most challenging and rewarding part, is helping people find solutions. It’s really hard. But also really rewarding.
MB: How do you think your definition of leadership has changed from the account side into now this more operations and people side?
KK: I think that my definition of leadership has changed in that, especially coming up in advertising, you oftentimes observe that the person that’s the squeaky wheel, the loudest in the room or the most vocal voice in the room, is the leader. But I think that I’ve learned that that’s not always the case, that you can lead by guiding a team and kind of being in the wings, and being a great support system is a very valuable and another way to lead. You don’t have to be the last person in the room to be a leader. That’s been another thing of retraining my brain, at least. Guiding the team and supporting them and championing them is just as fun.
MB: What do you think has been the biggest learning that you’ve had as you think about all the behind the scenes work that goes into scaling an agency?
KK: Doing what’s right for the client isn’t always what’s right for your business, and striking the balance between the both. And even what’s right for the work itself or a creative idea may sometimes be in conflict with what’s right for the business and the bottom line. And just striking that balance and deciding when to pull the levers and when to take a chance or make a bet. And it comes up, I feel like, more often than you think, especially on the side of creative production.
MB: What’s one thing you wish you knew earlier in your career?
KK: Probably that being liked isn’t the same as being respected, like we talked about before. And I wish I knew to check in with myself and my happiness in my career, because ultimately, doing that can lead to you being better at what you’re doing. I feel like when you’re young, you’re just chasing the next rung. You’re just gunning after it, instead of taking the time to be like, “All right, am I loving this? Am I feeling great about this?” And you learn that by burning out.
MB: When you were 21, did you think that this would be what you’re doing today?
KK: Absolutely not. I was so silly and so naive.
MB: What did you think you would be doing?
KK: I probably thought I’d be working for a fashion house in New York or something. Girl can dream.
MB: Where can people find you? And where can people find the Escape Pod?
KK: People can find the Escape Pod here in Chicago. And we’ll be at the Business of Brands conference, which will be fun. But people can find me probably on the sidelines at a sports game, because I’m in that season of life as a parent. All the sports, all the time.
MB: Well, thank you so much.
KK: This was really fun.
MB: You guys can find us on Instagram @namedrop.pod, and I’m @molbakes. Thanks so much.
